Author Topic: My Theory  (Read 38666 times)

dark023

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Re: My Theory
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2013, 03:11:07 AM »
In that case there may still be a way to reset the threshold though right?  If some of us have had orgasms in the past, the threshold has obviously change, we just need to figure out how to change it back?

Yanni

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Re: My Theory
« Reply #76 on: September 14, 2013, 07:28:30 AM »
From everything that I have experienced, it feels like something has raised the orgasmic trigger threshold in my body above the normal that most men experience and it is only extreme situations (eg illness, bypassing the usual triggers in wet dreams to activate at the source, etc) that lower the threshold or raise my body up to the new threshold and permit a semblance of a normal orgasm.  In my case I think it is pain that raises the threshold.

However, I had a recent experience which challenges this idea:  my penis was being stimulated quite vigorously and it was becoming uncomfortable and painful (this is often the point at which ejaculation will suddenly be triggered just to "get it over with") but this time I bore down on the pain somehow (possibly with clenching of abdominal muscles) to endure it and after a short while I started to feel a buildup to ejaculation, but it was much slower than usual and had a different feeling and when it reached a peak I think I experienced some orgasmic sensation as well as ejaculation.  It was certainly better than anything I have experienced in some time, but internally I'm in conflict because of the attendant pain and reluctant to try again, even though it was somewhat pleasurable at the end (the pain sort of offsets the pleasure).  I can only imagine what I might feel if I didn't have the pain.  So now I'm confused about the role the pain is playing.

NoFun

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Re: My Theory
« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2013, 06:12:08 PM »
However, I had a recent experience which challenges this idea:  my penis was being stimulated quite vigorously and it was becoming uncomfortable and painful (this is often the point at which ejaculation will suddenly be triggered just to "get it over with")...  So now I'm confused about the role the pain is playing.
Interesting. On the one and only orgasm I can recall, sensation really started with what I would call a sharp, painful itch in the head of the penis. Definitely not pleasurable, but I felt more driven to continue that usual, and maybe within 30 seconds had an orgasm.

Yanni

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Re: My Theory
« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2013, 08:11:58 AM »
I wish I understood biology better, to get a greater handle on what is happening with pain and sensation and how it relates to the orgasmic/ejaculatory process.  Do we have separate pain and pressure sensors?  Are there separate nerves for pain, pleasure and pressure or is it a shared highway that gives priority to pain signals versus pressure and it is the pressure signals that actually get translated into pleasure when happening at the correct tempo, location, strength and duration?

I'm not sure the medical profession understand the true process of ejaculation and orgasm as it relates to the symphony of triggers required for it to happen and what can interfere with them.  Is there a learning process involved or is it intrinsically hardwired, which can undergo "amnesia" in certain circumstances?

I am aware that some women need to be taught how to have an orgasm.  Perhaps that can apply to men as well, but we mostly tend to think "it just works" so when it stops we don't have the tools to get it restarted.

Bill

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Re: My Theory
« Reply #79 on: November 04, 2013, 01:52:33 PM »
Your theory is fascinating, Chris, and from a medical perspective it's certainly the most persuasive explanation I've ever heard for this "EA" problem. Like you, I've long racked my brain to try and recall any at least moderately traumatic injury to the pelvic area that I may have suffered in my youth, but nothing arises. I do feel that perhaps general pelvic muscle tension may have been present, due in particular to anxiety I had in my earliest youth about bowel movements -- frequently clenching the pelvic muscles to avoid having to go the bathroom at school, etc., etc.

My own version of this EA issue is a little different than most of the accounts I've thus far read on this forum. I've shared it elsewhere, but I'll do so here again and in a slightly different way in case it may perhaps help shed some light on some of the remaining conundrums in your theory. It's difficult to describe all of this without getting into some embarrassingly specific things about my early practices of masturbation, but so be it. Here's the deal: when I first experienced sexual sensation/release at about the age of 9 or 10, I didn't even realize specifically that that is what I was doing. I basically was dry humping a pillow, and in my mind the focus of the stimulation was more that I was pushing against my bladder area. I was definitely fantasizing in a sexual way, but I didn't actually think that this was masturbation since I wasn't overtly handling my penis. Anyway, the feeling that I experienced was a kind of itching/burning sensation, not overtly pleasurable but not exactly painful, that gradually increased and peaked during orgasm. It vaguely felt related to the feeling of a full bladder or bowels, but not exactly. At this early pre-puberty stage, I did not ejaculate semen, so this further contributed to my false notion that somehow what I was doing was not in fact masturbating/stimulating my penis. Regardless, I came to enjoy this whole experience as described above, and I did it often. I don't remember the exact chronology here, but perhaps six months later or so, I first tried masturbating in a "traditional" manner. I'll never forget the first moments of touching my penis with a lubricated hand. The sensation was entirely different than the one I describe above. Instead, I felt a kind of warm, tingling sensation, one that then and now I am certain is the "correct," normal sensation of sexual pleasure. The feeling grew as I continued, but shortly before orgasm it subsided and once again I felt the itching/burning sensation during orgasm. Soon, perhaps after one or two more experiences like the one I just described, the extremely pleasurable sensation (warm and tingly) went away entirely, and basically normal direct penile stimulation masturbation came to feel just like the initial thing I'd experienced when humping the pillow. I experienced the warm/tingling sensation maybe a handful of other times during the course of the next several years, always in the context of some new masturbation experience: the jet in a swimming pool, a vibrating massager. Never, though, did the sensation last through orgasm, but always the itching/burning feeling would take over. At the time, all this was a maddening mystery to me, but in looking back on this in the past 10 years or so (I am now 37), I believe that what characterized each of the experiences in which I felt the very pleasurable, "normal" sensation was that my pelvic muscles were more relaxed than usual during stimulation. Then, as they naturally contracted during climax, the old "abnormal" sensation would reappear.

Eventually, the "abnormal" sensation eventually became my de facto sexual sensation, and it has been for many years. Occasionally now I feel the more pleasurable sensation briefly during stimulation of other erogenous zones, but never during penile stimulation. Like most others in this forum, everything seems to work fine on the surface -- I am happily married and ostensibly all is normal about my sexual experience, except for the fact that I experience an itching/burning sensation during sex.

In recent years I've become hopeful about the root cause of my problem being pelvic tension, and at the moment I'm embarking upon a course of stretching/relaxing etc., as discussed in other places on this forum. However, certainly your notion of nerve compression makes perfect sense as well and obviously far from being mutually exclusive with pelvic tension is precisely a result of it (well, and also of the idiosyncratic vagaries of nerve formation, as you discuss). I guess what has always given me a glimmer of hope that my situation may be reversible is this: I had experienced the "abnormal" sensation probably hundreds of times and utterly consistently before out of the blue the more pleasurable sensation was discovered. In other words, at least in roughly those first three to four years of my sexual awakening from 10-14 or so, the "abnormal" sensation did not progressively arise and eventually dominate my experience, but quite the contrary. So, it seemed that at least then it wasn't a matter of a nerve becoming univocally damaged once and for all -- i.e., there was some obvious overlap in my ability to experience "normal" sexual sensation (albeit not during orgasm), and my experience of the itching/burning sensation. This has always been a puzzle to me.

I hope some of the above makes sense and isn't too convoluted. In simple terms, what is different for me is that rather than a pure absence of sensation I've always experienced an "abnormal" sensation. The more I think about it, I'd say that it is precisely the feeling of a sore muscle in my pelvic area, focused in my penis. It's not painful, and obviously my brain has learned to associate it with sexual release and to a certain extent to enjoy it. It is pleasurable enough, in other words, that I don't find sex completely devoid of satisfaction, even though I wouldn't describe the pure sensation per se as overtly pleasurable. The reason I share all of this is I'm wondering if my particular variant on this EA experience may shed some light on it in general. I think with me it had a lot to do with muscle tension and how this interacted with masturbation technique and how it all played out in my earliest years as a sexual being. While I have some hope that doing stretches and trigger point massage, etc., in the pelvic area may perhaps reawaken my ability to experience deep sexual pleasure, I also fear after reading your posts that perhaps the more direct cause of my experience is nerve compression of the pudendal nerve. Perhaps somewhere along the way my brain learned to interpret some experience of muscle tension that could be triggered during sexual stimulation as normal, and that's why instead of simply feeling nothing, I experience a kind of alternate, not all that pleasurable feeling during sex. It's a puzzle.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 02:07:34 PM by Bill »

Ralding

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Re: My Theory
« Reply #80 on: November 04, 2013, 04:57:29 PM »
I am an EA sufferer for 30+ years.  I am also an MD, so I have a unique perspective on what may be going on.  I'm going to keep this succinct, because I think the cause is rather simple.  First off, I do believe the post SSRI group of sufferers are following a different mechanism altogether whose origin must be central (i.e. in the central nervous system pleasure pathways).   But for the rest of us, my observations and experiences have resulted in the following paradigm. For me, there is some sensation during the build up but what is most interesting is how the involuntary muscle contractions that define male orgasm coincide with an obliteration of sensation.  I do not think this is a coincidence.  Moreover, my EA started extremely early in my sexual development, like shortly after discovering what self pleasure was all about.  It also happened instantly.  I still recall the day that the pleasure stopped and my abject surprise.  Also, it was a little painful in the beginning.  But after the pain wore off, the orgasms just were without feeling.  And the build ups while not absent were muted.  I also remember a short time period of sharp, brief stabs of pain centered in the anal area, which also subsided.  Taking all this information collectively, this is what I think is going on:

The pudendal nerve, like all nerves, probably takes various courses between the penis and spinal cord.  All anatomical structures in our body have extreme variability in terms of their locations, divisions, size, symmetry, etc.  Why should this structure be any different?  I believe the vast majority of EA sufferers have some variant in the trajectory of this nerve, which by the way, must weave its way through layers of perineal muscles and various protective canals before it reaches the sacral nerve roots.  I believe EA is a COMPRESSIVE NEUROPATHY (like carpal syndrome) which is caused by an anatomical variant in PD nerve course which results in severe nerve compression when the perineal muscles tonically then clonically contract duriing male orgasm.  I believe the exact anatomical variant may result in nerve compression and damage very early in sexual life or perhaps later if the compression is not as severe, hence different times of onset. 

I do not believe my PD nerve is totally shot, and I have some pleasure during buildup, but the involuntary muscles contractions that occur simply choke the nerve at the exact moment of orgasm....which leads me to my next important point.  Will reaching orgasm cause any pleasure without some nerve stimulation?  I think not, there must be some nerve stimulation from the genitalia to transmit to the pleasure centers to cause pleasure.  Without it, even though arousal is high, nothing integrates in the pleasure center to cause the feeling.

If my theory is correct, the only treatment that I see working is 1) pharmacologically enhacing afferent neuro transmission from gentialia with various neurotropic drugs  2) relieving the compression with surgery  3) bypassing the compression with electrical stimulation, either via the skin or implanted close to sacral nerve roots

That's it...I don't think it's complicated, just a stupid compressive neuropathy.  Virtually any nerve in the human body can be compressed, and if look at the structure of the human perineum you'll appreciate quickly that there are many opportunities to compress this nerve.

Hi Chris,

I found that a very interesting read. I think you are right about some things and possibly wrong with others. I believe that it is similar to carpel tunnel syndrome (which is another tension disorder) and tension disorders are causes by the nervous system being set into a fairly constant hyperactive state causing increased muscles tension. The root of these hyperactive state though is less clearly defined. It could be from poor muscle use and patterns of behaviour over many years which is causing muscles to stay on and compounding that surrounding muscles could tightening to try and balance the situation causing even more tension. It can also be caused by stress and just our bodies response to it. I feel like the pudendal nerve is one of many nerves that contribute to the pleasure feelings we have during orgasm. But there are many more nerves and in guys we also have the very important dorsal nerve of the penis the deep perennial nerves and even more that run through the obturator muscles. Additionally so much pleasure from orgasm is also felt deep in the anus around the prostate which is a nexus of nerve ending and in the lowest part of the abdominal muscles just above the penis - build up seems particularly concentrated around there. But all of the nerves are only part of the story The muscles seem to be so important as well and they really need to be relaxed strong balanced and at their correct length. Not only will this cause nerves to be less compressed but it also allows synergy in the movement of all the muscles which allows the pleasure to flow through the abdomen pelvis and even lower back. Lets face it orgasm is as much about movement of muscles as it is about neurotransmitters activity and dopamine as it is about the nerves. I think addressing the musculature of the pelvis is the most important step that anybody suffering from this condition can take it's also the most holistic and rewarding. I strongly would recommend adopting this course of action for at least three months before attempting any kind of drug therapy or surgery. I'm sorry but I completely hate the mindset that drugs and surgery are good options. They are end game options and last resorts.

People who take SSRI drugs also cause muscle problems. Those drugs cause stress in the bodies muscles. They also make it difficult to cum because the increase in seretonin is imbalanced with with regards to dopamine. What then happens is people tend to masturbate furiously for hours on end and end up putting muscles into involuntary muscle spasms. This however is a theory of mine but I have discussed it at length with people who take psychoactive pharmaceuticals all of which seem to have side effects.   
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 05:03:56 PM by Ralding »

ChasingIt

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Re: My Theory
« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2013, 11:59:43 AM »
To Chris(if you are still reading this form), or anyone who could help, my symptoms are almost exactly like Chris's. Had full blown orgasms in my early years up untill the age of 11 (started early, I'm 17 now). It was a shift in the matter of one day going from 10/10 to 0-1/10 orgasms. I've been masturbating ever since then off and on never experiencing anything over a 1. I can remember an event that was at least in the same year, possibly the same day, where I was walking on a bar on a play set and fell landing directly on my scrotum & anus area (avoided the testicles) the only problem is it was a very long time ago and can't remember if it was related. Before even considering it a nervous or muscular problem I started testing different supplements the past month and feel like they have maybe gotten me to a 2/10 but it is possibly just an increase in buildup pleasure. The supplements include l-theanine, inositol, phosphatidylserine, cdp choline, and piracetam. I'm now at a loss of what to even have checked, I'm going to a chiropractor tomorrow specifically for pelvic re-alignment so I will document anything that comes from that. I have a tens unit and have been using it in multiple places on my pelvis area but am willing to experiment with anything that anyone can direct me to. My biggest question is what type of doctor am I searching for that can do an MRI and nerve conduction test of the specific pelvic areas. If I can get some insight on these thing I promise I will report any of my findings and results.

Chris

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Re: My Theory
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2013, 02:05:18 PM »
Ralding,
You may be on to something.  I do agree with some of your tenets and disagree with others.  What you are proposing is that the pelvic floor muscles are the root cause of the problem.  The pudendal nerve and its branches traverse the pelvic floor, therefore if these muscles are in a constant state of inappropriate tension, then we get nerve compression and EA.  However, I do not believe muscles are the source of sensory perception, peripheral nerves and the brain ultimately are.  Now, can rhythmic muscle contraction titillate  nerve endings, yes...and to that extent this could be a source of pleasure.  I like your explanation of how SSRI use may cause persistent EA...very interesting link that supports your theory.  I have a question then:  if pelvic floor muscle tension is the cause of EA, then why don't more EA sufferers have other deficits?  The pelvic floor at its heart is the arbiter of fecal and urinary continence.  Why don't we have more issues in this area if these muscles are always inappropriately  tense? 

Chris

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Re: My Theory
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2013, 02:15:36 PM »
Chasing It,
Your story mirrors mine and I can't help but think that any time loss of sensation happens so acutely and appears permanent, the mechanism must be nerve injury...probably by severe rapid compression and loss of O2/blood supply.  As I have stated earlier this sort of clinical presentation is akin to stroke.  No other neurologic processes, be they degenerative or autoimmune happen that quickly and follow a course of permanent, non-variable loss of sensation over years.
It is very interesting that you have a vague memory of a fall with trauma to the perineum.  It would be very useful to figure out if there was a 1:1 correlation between the injury and your EA.  For me, 30 years of time have elapsed and I cannot possibly recall any event that preceded my EA.  I have raised the possiblility in the past that excessive bicycling could injure our pudendal nerves.
As far as work up I would focus on the following:  try to get a MR NEUROGRAM of your pudendal nerve, this is very specialized and is not performed just anywhere.  I believe there is a website that focuses on pudendal neuropathy and it lists various sites across the country.  I'll try to get it for you but try a google search.  Secondly, I would consider seeing a neurologist, be frank with him and explain you have no sensation in your penis, and perhaps he can do nerve conduction studies on your dorsal nerves of the penis.  Finally, do you have any baseline sensation to your penis (touch, pin prick, cold, hot, vibration, etc)?  Do you feel anything when TENS electrodes are placed there? Since you are relatively early in the course of EA, you would make a good subject to investigate.  Keep us posted.
Chris



ChasingIt

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Re: My Theory
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2013, 02:56:20 AM »
Thanks for the response! I will work on trying to get a better approximation on the dates of the time I lost orgasm and my fall. Tomorrow I'll start searching for someone to perform a mr neurogram! The sensation in my penis is the only thing that differs from us, perhaps because I am a little earlier. A pinch feels like a pinch to the wrist, it doesn't really hurt like one to the neck would, but I can tell I'm being pinched. Also when touching on the skin directly behind the gland I can feel the slightest feeling of pleasure although nothin compared to what was. When masturbating, I feel like everything is working on the buildup and slowly gets better an better untill the point of orgasm where it just leaves immediately. No muscle contractions, chills, vocalization, or anything. I tested the dorsal nerves of my penis with the tens unit and was surprised that i could definitely feel it more sensitively than other parts of my body. Another interesting thing was that after using it for about 2-3 minutes at different settings, I could still feel stimulation in the dorsal nerves for about 4 minutes after.

Yanni

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Re: My Theory
« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2013, 05:47:48 AM »
Chris,

How would you explain a single wet dream as being the most intense orgasmic experience ever, if it is mediated mainly by nerves, since these don't get activated in the same way in a dream?

I have a theory that the brain can "imagine" sensation where no sensation exists, as long as it has had a previous experience of those sensations to build on:  thus from a memory of what rhythmical stimulation feels like, a brain can imagine it happening completely under its own control as to tempo and intensity and basically orchestrate a symphony of orgasmic trigger feelings.  However, I think this can only work if one has already experienced an orgasm in the past, sort of like once learning to ride it is easy to pick it up again at a later stage as the memory pathways are still there.

I'm not sure how this theory can be used, even if correct, because I don't believe it is possible to readily enter a dream state but still under conscious control, although I have a suspicion the Tantrics can approximate it.

Having said that, some men can trigger a hands-free orgasm without any overt stimulation, which is kind of interesting and suggests that either it doesn't take much sensation for them or they are imagining a buildup that isn't actually happening physically.

When I was much younger, I could imagine rhythmic stimulation of my penis when no such action was occurring and I could achieve quite a high level of excitement, although not enough to ever tip me over the edge, but I think it confirms an ability to think oneself to an orgasm in the absence of stimulation.

NoFun

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Re: My Theory
« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2013, 12:23:54 AM »
How would you explain a single wet dream as being the most intense orgasmic experience ever, if it is mediated mainly by nerves, since these don't get activated in the same way in a dream?

Mediated mostly by nerves *when you're awake*. All sorts of experience can be generated without actual sensory input while dreaming, but it's quite a trick to train yourself to do that on command while awake.